posted 05-06-2000 05:17               

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posted 05-06-2000 07:52               

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See Spot.
See Spot run.
Run Spot run!
No Spot No! Don't run into the road!
See semi.
See semi honk.
See Spot splat.

Obi Online-Recorded Games and AI files

posted 05-06-2000 09:37            

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<------| |//AAP

posted 05-06-2000 15:15               

I'll have to make sure I keep an eye out for this program in the future. I've always like turn based games like civ so maybe give me an email when you have it done and I'll help test it. Kinda sucks though Catalism won't be out till September .

Good Luck

posted 05-07-2000 21:24            

However, my ideas evolve into a mix of RTS and presistent role playing. Now, this is just a wild ride of my imagination. I know I probabily have gone too far. Please commond on any part that you don't think is realistic.

1) The game revolves around the concept of warring armadas/empires with maps that represent the territories/borders.

2) Instead of building fleet around a mothership that provide unlimited supply of ships given enough resource. I thought fleet procurement/resupply is moved to a web base interface while the player is not doing battle. Strike crafts can be manufactured in mission.

3) resourcing can be drawn from the coffer of the armada or from individual resourcing. The amount of support from the armada depends on the sucess of ranking of the player. A percentage of individual resourcing goes to the armada at the end of mission. The players use their RU to purchase supplies and frigate size cap. ship while not on missions. Super cap. ships are obtained through armada assignment (in exchange for RUs) for valor in battle or given for difficult missions.

4) The armada can uses the RU income to build inferstructures such asspace stations, mining colonys, hyperspace inhibitor or hyperspace jump gates to benefit the operation of the empire. In addition, the armada use the RU to purchase ships that will be in turn supplied to players. The armadas are allowed to adjust the pricing of ships inorder to aid the construction of the inferstructures.

5) Players plays through a series of mission of different profiles such as supply/ resource ships escort, raiding party, search & destroy of the raiding party, stealing technology(salvage?), assisting/protecting evacuation, or full scale battle. As such, the player design the composition of their fleet to their liking. A fleet beyond certain strength + rating can not play mission profiles designed for lower strength.

6) Full scale battles has to be waged along the borders with multiple rounds to decide the outcome of the battle. Each player participate mush have a flagship. The destruction of flagship means penalties to the player's fleet for the remainder of the battle if he chooses not to withdraw his remaining fleet from the battle.

Note: An armada should keep an mix of high ranking players and lower ranks. Since only the low rank players can be involved in resource intensive missions. A player beyond certain rating should be given certain resource and establish new armada/empire in newly explored territory. Other empires can send a search and destroy party (of limited size) to counter the expansion. The player can only bring minor portion of his fleet. The remaining fleet is only for reinforcing the exploration mission up to certain limit. The players need to establish a capital certain sector away form the mother empire. A hyperspace jump gate has to be established in order for the whole fleet to be hyperspaced at once. Or the player needs to recruit new players to command portion of the fleet over to the capital.

7) Technology is a whole other beast I have not thought of yet.

Whoa!! That was a big one.

posted 05-10-2000 05:13               

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posted 05-10-2000 05:22               

I'm a ISP mate.. Bribes accepted.

BRGDS

posted 05-10-2000 07:55            

What I might suggest is this. The external territory/map/movement/etc can all be done turnbased. But the actual battles can't have one side stronger than the other at the getgo. The only way to implement one side over the other is in concentration of forces, i.e. more than one player from one side against a smaller number from the other side.

However, there are some more interesting possibilities.

Lets suppose that initially every side starts out with a small amount of spacial territory which gives them each the same amount of TBRU's(Turn based RU's) per turn. Each side in the game would be an armada, say one is the DD's, one is the RBA, one is the CC's, one the OMO, one the NA, etc. These sides each start with one mothership, elected from amongst their player pool to be the overall admiral of their fleet, say a fleet admiral. This admiral or the fleet as a whole(all admirals) can decide how to spend these monthly RU's. Now, if we want a very intensive game, we can have it so that all territory is already taken, so you ahve to take it from someone else. OR, we can have it so that there is space between the fleets that is available, allowing for a slow buildup.

Now, the Admirals can use RU's to hyper their mothership and set up TBRU resourcing operations in that sector, claiming it as their own. The limit on what they can do in a turn is based on their RU limit for that turn, which will be approximately 1 week of real time. Some admirals may expand immediately, claiming RU's. Any undefended territory that an enemy mothership moves into is immediately taken. If two motherships engage, there is a battle. The map should be set ahead of time before movement even takes place.

Now, the other option that can be done is that ru's can be spent to build another mothership or carrier, and that a new admiral from the fleet can be released. This means more potential movement the next turn, more defense, and more offense, at the expense of movement that turn. RU's can be banked, of course.

Potential problems: If a carrier and a mothership meet in combat, how is the game played? We can't play carrier only or mothership can we? Do we then restrict the game to mothership or carrier only games? Perhaps the mothership encountering the carrier sends in a carrier of its own to fence off, with the advantage that the mothership player can retreat with no losses?

Similiarly, if a player loses their last command vessel(if they are a carrier admiral, then their carrier, or if they are a mothership than their mothership), Do they return to the "Homeworld" and await a rebuild of their carrier/mothership from there? Or are they out of the game perminantly?

I can right up a feasible ruleset fairly quickly if someone wants to see one. Something that wouldn't require we make individual maps with advantages to one side or the other. Let me know if you want it.

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posted 05-10-2000 08:42               

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posted 05-10-2000 09:04            

I also don't think I'm overly fond of overwriting my normal maps. People may want to play on their own sometimes without being in the tourney. Perhaps we can make them into new maps?

I have a cable modem, so downloads aren't that big a deal. But, won't people manipulate this scripting language to cheat then? Or at least it'd be possible.

I dunno, guess we should be talking about this on the modder's forum.. Oh I mean editing.

BTW, would you be interested in working on some sort of rulebase and setting up this tourney? I'd be glad to help, as I did something very similiar with Total Annihilation before Boneyards.

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posted 05-10-2000 09:10               

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posted 05-10-2000 09:15            

The idea I have has a heavy dosage of presistence. After reading your first post several more times, this might not be what you where thinking at first.

I guess in order to attain presistancy, you have to work through the lobby server and retool the interfaces for the functionalities. This task will have to be done on product design phase, so I guess modifying HW to do it is out of question.

Sorry about that,

posted 05-10-2000 11:25            

If you've played boneyards, this is similiar to what you're talking about, Kittani. Unfortunately, its isn't really doable by fans. However, we could implement a sort of 'cases ladder' structure where basically the fans do all the work.

In such, I think it would take effort on everyone's part, and it isn't something that we can do in a half-ass manner. If you're serious about wanting to create a sort of Turn based tournament, I'm all in for it. I'll do what I can, even volunteer about 70 megs of web space I'm not using(if I can find out how to access it that is.. hehehe). I can't be a server, however. But, I can code an interface for it in VB. I did for TA(it never got used though).

I'm not sure how to do the scripting, but if we can do it with simple text edits into a script file, I can write VB code to do it. I know C++, but I'm not as conformtable with it.

Perhaps we should get some of the Modder's and/or Tekron in here. Maybe the Companion could be built into an interface for our usage?

I'll be watching.

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posted 05-10-2000 13:08            

Because space is mostly empty, you could just play on a constant, blank map. On the other hand, you could have a choice of 10 maps or so, and mabey add new ones all the time, that represent certain sectors in the universe.

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posted 05-10-2000 14:16               

First of all you create the universe. Let's say, a grid of 50 x 50. Each grid square = 1 map. (If the designer is really clever he'd have resource rich parts of the universe as well as just each map). Each map can be used over, it's not like it gets boring or anything.

You have the teams, you could start with 4 and make it easy to begin with. Each team/armada starts of with territory in one corner of the map. They could each own a block 3 x 3 in their corner of the universe for example. So technically 9 maps worth of territory are theirs to begin with.

You have a website displaying the universe (grid style) and who owns what territory, each team/armada commander will decide into what grid square he is going to move his forces for that week (or you could make it every 3 days per turn). That info is kept in a database on the website. Once you have made your move, it is logged. When you move into an unoccupied square, you assume the RU's for that map.

In the same database you have the means to determine how many overall RU's each Armada has. Eg. Team A have control of 15 grid squares since the start of the game, you can determine how many RU's that team has.

The RU's do not decide how big the battling armadas are going to be directly, but how the team operates as a whole. You have different levels of development for the armadas. Every 50 000 RU's collected, you can increase your armada size to a certain level. The forces remain the same when battling on Won, however the team as a whole grows.

Level 1 - 1 mothership and 4 fleets (5 players)
Level 2 - 1 mothership and 6 fleets (7 players)
Level 3 - 2 motherships (increasing your armadas survivability) and 8 fleets (9 players)

etc .. you get the idea.

As each armada grows, they must recruit more players. When an armada/team is eliminated, say they lose all 4 player fleets and then have their Mothership fleet destroyed, they are out of the universe until the current cycle is finished.

You could say the War would last 20 weeks (depending on how many turns you allow per week), or until one team/armada is victorious, whichever comes first.

YOu could develop and put conditions on teams. A certain team could have reduced tech perhaps, one could specifiy in certain types of ship, maybe cloaking might be a feature of one team.

OK, long post, just a few ideas. Sorry to butt in.

Incidentally, you are thinking too Won based. Just got theie for the battles, nothing else.

posted 05-10-2000 23:50               

In other words, we could establish a ruleset by which turns are used to travel through the galaxy by hyperspace (no RU expenditure, just like in SP) and also to build new "space stations". The game would work somewhat similar to Alpha Centauri or something in that respect. There would be different classes of space stations, of course. Mining stations, command stations, hyperspace gates, shipyards, etc. The Mining Stations would collect TBRUs (which someone else suggested), and these would then be sent off to the shipyards to produce new ships. The new ships would be then assigned to individual commanders as personal fleets which would follow arround the commander's flagship around.

Now, as for flagships... Motherships are very special vessels of which each armada should only have one or two at a time. They're the only vessels which can build new space stations. Carriers form the backbone of assault fleets used on attacks into enemy territory. No reason that supercaps should be built by raiders. =) Of course, Motherships would be needed to truly take advantage of the newly gained territory by building space stations, but Carriers would suffice for clearing off the area.

Which brings me to another thing... In-game building should be highly limited. Probably by disabling harvesting and injections. The only way to bolster fleets in-game would be by salvaging. If there were a way to allow building of strike craft while disabling capships, I'd love to hear it. But this seems to be the only way.

Now, utter destruction of the enemy is obviously not the only goal of tactical combat in this game. As a result, commanders should be allowed to retreat from battle to remove the remains of their fleet elsewhere. This can be done before the battle actually occurs by rejecting the enemy's challenge and allowing them to occupt the territory without resistance. Otherwise, the commander could "retreat" in the game by declaring "Retreat!" in public chat and then scuttling his Flagship.

Which brings me to yet another point. Referees. We'd need them to make sure that everything is "legit". They'd be a dedicated core of individuals with NO connection to any armadas who would provide a means of ensuring that noone takes advantage of the game system. Their functions would be three-fold. First, they would have access to all of the fleet dispositions aramada commanders have produced in the turn-based game, which they would then use to generate the starting fleets on the maps being played. Naturally, the maps themselves would be all standard maps established by the league before anyone even started playing. Second, they would host all games to be sure that there are NO unauthorized map modifications. Third, they would review all post-game recordings (three... one from each commander and his own recording) and report the results to the league, who make the appropriate changes to the turn-based game.

posted 05-11-2000 02:09               

Even awoke me...
http://www.molle.net/playground

Check it out. I fell for the idea directly. Gonna work some more on it and get a hold of Dukath!

posted 05-11-2000 03:09               

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posted 05-11-2000 03:16               

Wait! I AM the boss! Sheeeeesh.. I forgot!

posted 05-11-2000 05:53               

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posted 05-11-2000 09:11            

I still like the idea of Turn Based Resource Units collected from controlled territories. While I also like the idea of being able to build various "stations" in those territories, I'm unsure how we'd implement that and what the point would be.

I don't like the idea of not being able to build in a game. I should be able to resource as normal and construct whatever ships I feel necessary. I also think it would be a good idea to let the individual teams decide how many carriers and motherships they would field.

Here's my proposal. I've split it into sections to try and make it more understandable.

Turns: Turns represent time spent in the Overworld game. Each team gets a certain number of turns per day, increasing with the number of people. For a rought estimate, lets say 10 turns per day initially, with 2 turns added for each new 'admiral' added to that team.

Movement costs 2 turns per sector for a mothership, or 1 turn per sector for a carrier. Setting up resourcing operations costs 1 turn for either the mothership or carrier. Setting up a hyperspace gate takes 1 turn for a mothership, and cannot be done by a carrier. Building a new carrier costs 2 turns and is done from a mothership, and adds a new admiral to that 'fleet'. Building another mothership takes 5 turns and is only done from the starting sector that turn began in(their homeworld).

TBRU's: Movement does not cost TBRU. Each HW provided 5000 TBRU's per day, other territories vary.

Construction of a resourcing operation costs 500 TBRU's. Construction of a new carrier costs 1000 TBRU's. Construction of a new mothership costs 5000 TBRU's. Construction of a hyperspace gate costs 2000 TBRU's. These are just rough estimates.. and TBRU's do not equate to regular RU's. TBRU's are actually more valuable.

Hyperspace Gate: Any hyperspace gate constructed by a team is linked to all that teams hypergates, and costs any admiral 1 turn to move from one gate to any other of that team. Hyperspace gates are not destroyed but are captured when an enemy moves into a territory and either wins a victory or is unopposed.

Resourcing Operation: Equivalent to setting up enough collectors and controllers to mine whatever resources are in the region. These are not just those on the battle maps, but everything. That's why a battle can be fought in the same territory over and over without its resources being depleated. For the game purposes, resoures in a territory never really decrease.

Some territories are more rich than others. Homeworlds are some of the richest. Lower resource areas mean that it takes more time for the resourcers to move between resource fields, thus they collect less per day. Resources are collected at the end of the day, not the beginning.

Resourcing operations are captured in a territory if an enemy wins a victory there or is unopposed. The only exception to this is if a admiral decides to scuttle the resourcers BEFORE the battle, if there is a battle. If the defending admiral wins, the resourcers must be replaced or the resourcing for that day is lost.

Homeworlds: Important because they are the only place a team can build a mothership. By denying a team its homeworld and destroying all its motherships and carriers, that team is elliminated. Because a carrier cannot build a mothership, if all motherships are destroyed and the homeworld is not in control by a team, that team cannot add new admirals. However, if the homeworld is recaptured, motherships can again be built from there. Enemy homeworlds will not build motherships for enemy teams.

Battles: Battles take place on WON. In battles between a carrier and a mothership, the battle is played carrier only, with the side having the mothership being able to remain in the game if they lose. If the carrier loses, that admiral is out of the game until another carrier or mothership can be built for them. Otherwise, carrier vs carrier battles or mothership vs mothership battles are as normal.

If possible, fleets should be carried over from previous battles. Each new mothership or carrier starts out with NO other ships, but may accumulate them during battle or by using TBRU's to purchase them. (Turn based Resource Units could also be Team based resource units). If this is not possible, each fleet will remain be recycled at the end of a battle and turned into the equivalent TBRU's.

A losing fleet may retreat at any time by declaring "I retreat from this territory" during or before battle. That admiral's team pays a 500 TBRU penalty for emergency hyperspacing, and if the team is out of TBRU's and cannot pay it, that admiral is considered destroyed along with their entire fleet. They cannot rejoin the game until a new carrier or mothership is built for them. The retreater should make the declaration and immediately scuttle. This can happen even one second before their command ship is destroyed.. its still fair.

When a battle is won, or a loser successfully retreats, the died stats indicate a rough estimate of the RU's collected and spent. The difference is converted into TBRU's at a change of 1 TBRU for every 5 regular RU's. If possible, leftover ships will be added to battle maps for games in the future, otherwise their equivalent build cost will be converted into TBRU's using the same exchange rate.

In territories where battles occur, if more than one enemy or defender are present, they fight in that battle as well. Thus, if an enemy invaded a territory with three defenders, that enemy must face all three defenders.

Map: The map is a rectangular map, possibly square. Each team starts in a corner, if possible. They control the territory they are in, with resourcing operations already set up for them, and have a certain amount of starting TBRU's, for example 5000.

Territory without a team presence is considered nuetral except for the homeworld of that team. If a team admiral moves through a territory but does not setup resourcing operations or any other objects, that territory remains nuetral.

Turn completion: All turn actions are performed at 12:00 am. TBRU's are awarded to each team at 12:00 am. Opponents who passed over eachother without stopping are considered to have stopped in the sector where they crossed. These opponents must fight a battle the next day and report the outcome. These outcomes will take affect the day they are fought at 12:00 am. So, whenever territory changes hands after a battle, at the end of that day, thoe TBRU's go to the team that holds that territory, and not the team that held it the day before when the battle was started. Admirals that have not yet fought are considered to be in "evasive manuevers" and cannot leave the territory or perform any other action until they battle. They also expend two turns each day that they do not battle. This way an admiral who simply cannot play that day does not destroy the game, but is a problem for their team if they consistantly cannot play. The number of turns they use is the exact amount they would generate for the team. An advantage to doing this however, is that reinforcements can arrive before the battle begins, allowing a team to strengthen a weakened side. Either side can do evasive manuvers. The only way to force the battle is to build a 'gravwell station' at a cost of 500 TBRU's. This will either force the battle on the next day or that opponent must retreat/be destroyed. the gravwell station is a one time use facility and must be rebuilt every time it is to be used. This allows a team to force a battle before reinforcements can arrive for the other side.

If an admiral refuses to fight for more than a week, that teams controlling admiral(the first admiral) has the right to scuttle their carrier and take them out of the game. The controlling admiral must scuttle them after two weeks. This keeps people from simply not playing unless they really feel like it, because if people sit on their asses and don't play, then the game will be ruined. The controlling admiral also may replace that admiral with a new admiral instead, but this admiral must not have a carrier or mothership of their own yet.

It is up to each time to find their own admirals. If a team cannot field enough admirals to control the carriers and motherships they own, those ships are converted back into TBRU's at at full purchase cost. Turns are not recovered. Turns cannot be banked.

Finally, all games should be recorded by both sides. Also, rules can be added as needed. Examples might be "Bentusi Traders: They'll sell you carriers or motherships at twice the normal TBRU cost, but you get them right there where the traders are, even if you don't have a homeworld" And "Turanic raiders: They steal all the TBRU's from whatever territory they are in and destroy the resourcers there. A battle fleet entering the same sector they are in automatically wins."

And of course, all of this is a suggestion. Sorry if its long.

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posted 05-11-2000 09:48            

Let me see if I can organize a list:

Here are few basic ones:

1) External map/grid (web based).

2) Teams of players with limited turn per day. Each player command a fleet of various size.
(Either impose a limit on the number of maps a player can move through, or design a range based on his/her fleet size. ie: smaller fleet moves farther.)

3) Fleet movement limited to RU avalible + fleet size.

4) RU operation, based on the sector occupied.

(Note: I have a idea for RU operation. Maybe we can setup a small map with RU limited to what the map should contain, and have CPU as pirates or another team member doing raiding party, and the RU player doing escort.)

5) Battle, set on WON with a generated map with fix number of ships the player has.

( Retreat might be possible if player to quit, but lose ships that could not retreate fast enough. Or ships that's too far from the player's flag ship + invoke RU cost of hyperspace out of battle).

The biggest problem I see is how to communicate the outcome to the external game? A referees system as furtim suggested might be a solution. But is it possible to find enough people impartial and have enough time to monitor the activities?

posted 05-11-2000 10:49               

2) The universe status is updated every 5 or 10 minutes.

3) Orders are given any time a player logs in. You can send fleets to locations or other fleets. Either to merge the fleets(friendly) or attack. If you attack a planet/spacestation and its not defended then it is yours. You can build ships and research in this part of the game. You can only colonise/capture a planet if you have a MS in your fleet as its the only ship that has the equipment on board. You also need a MS stationed while building a spacestation.

4) Only spacestations can build new capships. Carriers and MS can build strikecraft.

5) keeping building and researching out of the actual battles will allow you to play with more different ships. (light interceptor and all those other ships you can't build but are ok if you get them as startup force)

6) Special units will have the same function outside battles as inside. Sensor arrays will expand your sensor range (not indefinite) Cloak generators will make your ships a lot harder to detect. (also not 100%)

7) More than one player could play a certain armada. This is to make sure there are enough players to fight the actual battles. You'd have to agree on who gives the orders or who is higher in rank yourself.

8) If you have collectors and controllers in high RU regions you will get RU income. If you have planets you will have food income. You need food and RU to maintain your fleet.

9) I'm not sure yet if i want a persistent universe or one that is reset after a while.

10) Retreating out of a battle will be possible, although you will be penalised. You'll lose the slowest ship and some random ships that didn't make it.(subject to cange)

11) A battle that is going on in the outside world will be on evasive manouvers until 2 players can agree on a time to play. After a certain time, if there are no players found, the computer will determine the winner, or the fleets will disengage and go back to a prevous location (dont know yet)

12) When you will have to fight a battle, a map generator should make the correct map (starting ships/positions) for each player. The host downloads the map and selects it for multiplayer. Play only with standard setup.

If i forgot any aspect of the game tell me and i'll think about it

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posted 05-11-2000 11:37               

While I'm fairly rough with my programming I would like to help anyway possible. Maybe if we can design it before HW:C we can work out all the bugs and use it then as well.

One thing though. The mother ship was designed to travel to unknown space and to build and maintain a small armanda. While I agree with not building within a game. I do feel that motherships should be able to build most cap ships as well as spacestations (Starports sounds better )

One thing though that could effect the way that people play though is probes. Can't build them durring battle but are a basic element of a task force. Maybe all players get a set amount at the beginning of a battle. They could be given 5-10 which would be considered standard armument.

When alls said and done I'm looking forward to this new variation on the game.

posted 05-12-2000 07:40            

However, I agree that would be interesting, and someone did mention on IRC making resource raiding maps for just this purpose.

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posted 05-12-2000 08:00               

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posted 05-12-2000 20:31            

It can be d/led in three parts. The parts need to be combined in a directory and setup.exe needs to run. Files:
http://nickersonm.50megs.com/HWPPSE/HWPPSE.CAB (1.947 MB)
http://nickersonm.50megs.com/HWPPSE/setup.exe (136 kb)
http://nickersonm.50megs.com/HWPPSE/SETUP.LST (3 kb)
Or, if you already have all the required dll's and so forth for VB 6.0 executables, d/l: http://nickersonm.50megs.com/HWPPSE/HWPPSE.exe (44 kb)

If anyone wants the source code, post a reply stating so.

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posted 05-13-2000 06:59               

dukath@ulyssis.org

I'll try to get everything together.

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posted 05-14-2000 23:32               

They are kinda gone.. anywhere else we can get them or can you e-mail them?

BSRGDS

posted 05-15-2000 05:31               

BSRGDS

posted 05-28-2000 13:24               

I had an idea that ran along similar lines that Lucasarts should have come up with when they had Jedi, XVTIE and Rebellion out at the same time, a larger campaign could have been created, with players flying TIEs in space battles, running special operations using Jedi maps and orchestrating the whole thing from Rebellion.

The theory can be used so that, say planets give more RUs per turn and can be battled for through a standard RTS (e.g. Starcraft), the winner keeping the planet. Espionage/Salavge opps run through Half-life/Quake 3 etc. and HW to run larger scale space battles. But then you'd need a bigger game to reflect the whole galxy, either Rebellion or Birth of the Federation spring to mind, but they have fixed maps, so some third party stuff would be required. Or you could keep it stored as HTML/Javascript online RPG style, with players submitting their universe orders by e-mail or BB and then a DM posting orders of battle (think Diplomacy). He'd need a map building crew, the initial start-up maps for the FPS could be re-used death-match style, whilst some random map generator for HW would be fine. the planet side RTS maps would be a pain.

The number of battles that could conceivably take place would mean that a player couldn't take part in them all, so some sort of odds generator would have to be used, a larger fleet having a slight advantage in a pure numbers game.

Anyway, if i've repeated some of what has already been posted, I apologize.

posted 05-28-2000 14:07               

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posted 05-28-2000 23:09            

How i loved that game !!!, sure the interface sucked big time, but the strategy component is one of the best and more adictive I've ever played with (of course thats just me). There is a big hard core community of Rebellion players out there in the zone, and I still have friends playing the game since it was released.

After Homeworld was released I automatically started dreaming about a Rebellion game where the fleet tactical battles were handled by a Homworld engine. That would be great. Homeworld on a Star Wars universe. I really think that the idea might work... mmm Rebellion 2 ?????, please somebody do it!!!!!!

Ok, sorry if i was too intense... ;-)

Osc

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"...We are all Star dust, the Universe became self-conscious..."

posted 05-29-2000 05:21               

GET SOME PERSPECTIVE

and, if your going to flame me, don't bother, its getting repetative